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Debate Topic: Gay Marriage
Topic Started: Dec 3 2005, 05:15 AM (408 Views)
2awesome4apossum
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You're avoiding my point... hint: I'm trying to get you to say *why*.

Is it just not cool to agree with me? Is that it? :unsure:

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Are there really that many gay couples over there that would be advanteged by the tax benefit? I haven't read any statistics so this is a honest question, not a retort.

I don't think I understand... advanteged? Well... I don't think that it's really needed for them... if that's what you mean :huh:

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(I don't mean to troll, Possum, I actually thought this may be potentially cool)

Nah, I can be easy going... but if you were trying to cause trouble, then I'd be upset ;)

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Sanity? (Possum is going to murdalize me...)

:lol:

I think that might have been what he meant. :) I also think someone's patronizing me >_> :P (but I can't say that it's not funny, because... well... it is!)

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But again, do you have any evidence that this is happening? Or that it is going to happen? It's all well and good saying it's a possibility, but how long is the world going to have to wait until the effects start showing? Has anyone been monitoring these countries to see the consequences?

No, because there hasn't been a country who's had it legalized for long enough. The point is that if gay marriage is amended to be legal, then it will be just as "constitutional" to allow polygamy, etc. So if it doesn't happen to some of the countries soon (within the next 30 years), I'll be suprised, because they could only too easily.

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Denmark has had a form of gay marriage since 1989, with the rest of Scandenavia following suit shortly afterwards. That's more than twenty-five yeards worth of gay marriages... there's a place to start looking to see if the 'slippery slope' has started to be felt.

1989? That's only 16 years. I think they still have another 20 or so, before we'll start to see suites about all of this. So sure it might not, but it will definitely be possible, which leads me to believe..

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Yet now, 15 years after the first of these countries (Denmark) legalized gay marriage in the form of registered partnerships, the results are in: not only has gay marriage worked flawlessly in Scandinavia, the institution of marriage may have benefited as a result. Indeed, we now see that the main “consequences” of allowing gays and lesbians to marry have been to create safety and security for same-sex couples who have chosen to live their lives together.

Well... that's a nice little statement, but I don't see any support for it (from him).

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Darren Spedale and William Eskridge have written a book called Gay Marriage: For Better or For Worse? What We've Learned from the Evidence which is (according to the Oxford University Press website) the first book to present empirical evidence about the effects of same-sex marriage, based on almost two decades worth of data and experience from the Nordic countries. Darren R. Spedale and William N. Eskridge, Jr. look at how same-sex marriage (in the form of registered partnerships) came to be in Scandinavia; who is getting married and why they are tying the knot; the Church's reception to same-sex unions; and how same-sex marriage has affected the couples, their families, their children, and their greater communities, both nationally and internationally.

And what were the results?

Anyway, church's who believe in the Bible are hypocritical by allowing same-sex marriage, although there are some radical Christians who don't believe in the Bible... wait... I guess it never said they were Christians anyhow...

And I'd need to know the background behind this study. Because it HAS been going on for so long, I have serious doubts about it. Such a long study would probably have some heavy biases... if I could get a link, that would be enough.

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This is another area which is interesting to look at - what are the statistics on gay married couples who choose to start families? Is it actually as low as you think? Is there statistical evidence to support the idea that 'most of them' after they get married won't be interested in starting a family? I'm surious to know...

Listen buddy, I'm studying statistics. It's part of my job to know these kind of things ;)

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    *  Between six million and 10 million children of lesbian, gay and bisexual parents currently live in the United States. 11

    * The number of unmarried partner households has increased by 72 percent in the last decade from three million in 1990 to more than five million in 2000. These figures include both same-sex and different-sex couples. 1

    * One-third of lesbian households and one-fifth of gay male households have children. 1

    * The Census Bureau reports that New York has 46,490 same-sex households, Ohio has 18,937 same-sex households and Missouri has 9,428 same-sex households. 13

    * During the past decade, the number of same-sex households “grew significantly” in 10 states for which figures have been released: more than 700 percent in Delaware and Nevada; more than 400 percent in Vermont, Indiana, Louisiana and Nebraska; and more than 200 percent in Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts and Montana. 14

Now keep in mind that these aren't households with gay people residing in, but established gay "family" numbers. And from those there's only
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  * One-third of lesbian households and one-fifth of gay male households have children. 1

I believe this is from a census.

Now, I'm going to give you a link with a lot more statistics. NOTE: this is a propaganda paper, but DOES include important facts/statistics.

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRR_01_12.html

You can take what you like out of that.

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Well, is that actually the biggest reason, or just wahat you think is the biggest reason? What about finicial security reasons as well?

Well, it's a part of that, but the tax benefit is the biggest reason and here's why: civil unions.

Depending on the state they live in they can 99% of the same benefits:
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* have access to joint insurance policies for home, auto and health
* inherit automatically in the absence of a will, including jointly owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship
* secure workplace and other benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, Medicare
* obtain veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans
* enter jointly into leases and other contracts, such as apartment and car rental agreements, and maintain renewal rights
* raise children together including: joint adoption, joint foster care, custody, and visitation including non-biological parents
* secure wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children
* take bereavement leave when a partner or child dies
* handle post-mortum decisions involving deceased partners, including where to be buried and how
* receive crime victims' recovery benefits
* secure domestic violence protection orders in states where this is currently prohibited
* obtain divorce protections such as community property and child support
* establish status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent

Most of these benefits are normally included for most civil unions. In fact (apart from the first one), these are normally included. The ones that tend to vary most are the insurance and social security factors, but if it were to be redefined on a national level, there'd be no problem there.

So you see? I'm not as much of a bigot as you think, I AM pro-civil unions ;)

As for that link on Sexual Intercourse... I can't find one, but from the phrase "sexual intercourse" I think they mean "sexual intercourse" not "anal and oral sex" (eck)

But I guess my point's officially been challenged ;)

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I'm sure some guy could spend months in court arguing that he had a "virgin anus". Complete with photographic evidence no doubt!

Technically though it would be possible to test muscle retention in order to prove that, and, er, yeah... as you can see I've learned some things I don't like to think about...

But that really isn't the dictionary, traditionalistic definiton of sexual intercourse... could that *really* hold up?

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Well, you all know what I think. At least I think you do. Anyway I'll maybe wade a bit deeper into this tomorrow when I'm a bit more, er, something. See? I've forgotten what it is I'm missing. I think it's eyesight by the looks of things...

I'm assuming you're too conservative to be pro-gay marriage, but I couldn't say...
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Duke Serkol
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2awesome4apossum,Dec 4 2005
11:17 PM
You're avoiding my point... hint: I'm trying to get you to say *why*.

Is it just not cool to agree with me? Is that it? :unsure:

Eh, but I don't agree with your reasons for being against it. I don't believe it would lead to all kinds of weird marriages (besides I'm in favor of non-contractual polygamy) or that the tax benefit is really the main controversy point.

Like I said, I'm against marriage in itself, so why would I want for it to grow even more consolidated? I do not believe "true love" (assuming such a thing exists) to necessarily last forever, as implied by the marriage oaths, nor that any love's longevity can be evaluated by anyone with sufficient accuracy. At most, I'd understand marriage as a binding which automatically kicks in when there's children to raise (and that is no longer binding when they are old enough)
Anything else is just a way to jeopardize a romantic relationship and possibly mess up a number of lives.

Well, a couple's gonna need money for a house and other things, regardless of what people it is composed of. But what I meant to ask is, are there that many gay couples waiting to get married, enough that this would make a really significant difference concerning the overall tax situation? (Unless you think that allowing them to marry will make the total number of homosexuals skyrocket)


Well then, new siggy!
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2awesome4apossum
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Eh, but I don't agree with your reasons for being against it. I don't believe it would lead to all kinds of weird marriages (besides I'm in favor of non-contractual polygamy)

That wasn't my only point...

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that the tax benefit is really the main controversy point.

Well... if civil union benefits aren't good enough for them, this is usually the major difference. Well, that and you can't call a civil union "marriage".

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But what I meant to ask is, are there that many gay couples waiting to get married, enough that this would make a really significant difference concerning the overall tax situation?

That's a good question that I actually didn't think about...

Time to google!
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Duke Serkol
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2awesome4apossum,Dec 5 2005
12:22 AM
Well... if civil union benefits aren't good enough for them, this is usually the major difference. Well, that and you can't call a civil union "marriage".

Maybe there could be straight marriage and gay marriage, with different benefits?
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2awesome4apossum
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Duke Serkol,Dec 4 2005
04:41 PM
2awesome4apossum,Dec 5 2005
12:22 AM
Well... if civil union benefits aren't good enough for them, this is usually the major difference.  Well, that and you can't call a civil union "marriage".

Maybe there could be straight marriage and gay marriage, with different benefits?

There are those of us who care for the sanctity of marriage. Us religious and/or traditionalistic nuts, which is the biggest reason for opposition against it.

Besides, civil unions legally bind them... well, "together". So I'm just for giving them similar benefits via civil unions... but they're always SO unhappy when I say that.
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coinilius
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You're avoiding my point... hint: I'm trying to get you to say *why*.

Is it just not cool to agree with me? Is that it?


Was that directed at me, BTW? Because pretty much, yes, I am just argueing certain points because it's cool not to agree with someone (at least in terms of debating an issue, and so long as no one gets personal or offended) :P Ask Duke, I argue points all the time because they zig where someone else is zagging ;)

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1989? That's only 16 years. I think they still have another 20 or so, before we'll start to see suites about all of this. So sure it might not, but it will definitely be possible, which leads me to believe..


Yes, the 25 year was a typo - I ment 15 :P As for Spendale and what's his name, they had concluded that it was having positive effects. The comment from him that I provided earlier was a comment about the book, which is where the findings are - he was going for a sale, I would imagine.

I'll try and find a link with some more information on the issue, if you're interested.

Still, the slippery slope arguement is a very nay-sayer doomsday arguement that has a nebulous 'maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow' clause which makes it impossible to accurately judge. When will we have the necesary results? What if they never come in to play? Also, Denmark does not operate under the same legal constitution as the US, so it would be interesting to see how they worded the whole gay marriage thing and how there laws are worded in general to see if the same 'constitutional rights' to multiple wives and child sex even apply.

Also, what about things like being able to marry a 13 year old in the US? You didn't comment on that.

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But that really isn't the dictionary, traditionalistic definiton of sexual intercourse... could that *really* hold up?


But anal intercourse is recognised as a form of sexual intercourse, so it would be interesting to see exactly how sexual intercourse is defined in this instance.

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There are those of us who care for the sanctity of marriage. Us religious and/or traditionalistic nuts, which is the biggest reason for opposition against it.


But what is the sanctity of marrige, in the final analysis? It's a fairly nebulous and culturally specific idea anyway that has changed constantly throughout history. Mary, mother of Jesus, was probably about 13 when she was bethrothed - that was the usual age when a girl was married off in those days. Many cultures have practised polygamy, for many different reasons over the years. Arranged marriages are practised quite frequently in other cultures, and used to be practised in western ones. Many early Western socities tolerated, even celebrated, same-sex unions. It was only after the civil war that African-Americans were allowed to marry in all areas of the U.S. It was only after a U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1967 that mixed race couples could marry anywhere in the U.S. Marriage has been a very dynamic concept since it was first created.

I'm not trying to bag you or marriage, I'm just interested in exactly what you believe constitutes the sanctity of marriage and why those particular aspects of marriage are the ones that need to be protected?

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Besides, civil unions legally bind them... well, "together". So I'm just for giving them similar benefits via civil unions... but they're always SO unhappy when I say that.


Actually, this was what my view boiled down to - remember the last time we were discussing this? Civil unions with similar benefits. And who exactly are 'they'? No offence, but it sounds like you're lumping all homosexuals into the generalisation basket there (unless you just mean people who support gay marriage in general).

And it's all well and good to say that 'civil unions give them most of these rights already', but what about the recognition of gay civil unions? How many states in the US recognise same-sex civil unions?

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So you see? I'm not as much of a bigot as you think, I AM pro-civil unions


I know you ment that as a joke (at least I think you did), but I don't think anyone here actually thinks of you as a bigot.
"You must be talking about Heaven... or the moon."

"It's a dog eat dog world... and there's not enough dog to go around."

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2awesome4apossum
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Was that directed at me, BTW?

Woops... sorry, I forgot to quote Duke. It wasn't directed at you. Although I agree with your responce. I mean, if someone enters a debate on my side, but makes a faulty point, I'll debate that point.

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I'll try and find a link with some more information on the issue, if you're interested.

Please :)

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What if they never come in to play?

Then all I'd be able to say is: "I was wrong."

It's not my biggest point, but it's an obvious possibility.

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Also, what about things like being able to marry a 13 year old in the US? You didn't comment on that.

I thought that the youngest was 14 and ONLY with parental conscent... 16 I believe is the youngest you can get married without parental conscent in a couple of states, but usually it's 18 or older to get married.

I disagree with it, but I believe in keeping the right to allow a 14-year old to get married, because: what if she gets pregnant? I believe that a family structure should be avaliable to her for support.

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But anal intercourse is recognised as a form of sexual intercourse

Is it?

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But what is the sanctity of marrige, in the final analysis? It's a fairly nebulous and culturally specific idea anyway that has changed constantly throughout history. Mary, mother of Jesus, was probably about 13 when she was bethrothed - that was the usual age when a girl was married off in those days. Many cultures have practised polygamy, for many different reasons over the years. Arranged marriages are practised quite frequently in other cultures, and used to be practised in western ones. Many early Western socities tolerated, even celebrated, same-sex unions. It was only after the civil war that African-Americans were allowed to marry in all areas of the U.S. It was only after a U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1967 that mixed race couples could marry anywhere in the U.S. Marriage has been a very dynamic concept since it was first created.

Right. Even my church practiced polygamy at one point. But it was for very specific reasoning, because there were *SO* many women in our church with so little men. We no longer have that problem today.

Mary, being married at 13 would have been normal for the time because they lived for a much shorter period of time.

So marriage should change from time to time depending on society, but BECAUSE of how society is today, it's more beneficial to society as an adult mother, father and kids.

500 years from now, that may or may not apply.

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why those particular aspects of marriage are the ones that need to be protected

Simple: it's been proven to be beneficial for society. I have a book on it... maybe I'll type some of it up a little later for you (if you'd like).

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Actually, this was what my view boiled down to - remember the last time we were discussing this? Civil unions with similar benefits. And who exactly are 'they'? No offence, but it sounds like you're lumping all homosexuals into the generalisation basket there (unless you just mean people who support gay marriage in general).

Yes, actually I do mean people who support gay marriage in general. They talk about how it's "sexist" and "discriminatory".

I don't know about you, but as far as I know, gay people don't have different genders than you and me.

But then there's the arguement of "you're specifying the gender of the people involved in this 'contract'" (which is a crude form of reffering to marriage). If we'd signed the U.N.'s latest crap on "human rights", then they'd have a point. But so would Angelina Jolie when she didn't get the part of Frodo.

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And it's all well and good to say that 'civil unions give them most of these rights already', but what about the recognition of gay civil unions? How many states in the US recognise same-sex civil unions?

I think Utah banned it :lol:, because quite simply: there's maybe 3 gay people in the entire state :lol: (j/k).

But seriously, I think everywhere but Utah, and even Utah may. I'll look it up for you.

You see: gay marriage was banned in Oregon. Oregon=most liberal state in the U.S., well how did it pass then? It didn't discriminate against homosexuals, still kept civil unions, etc.

Yet conservative Texas didn't ban it... why? The amendment was written to discriminate against gays.

You get the idea.

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I know you ment that as a joke (at least I think you did), but I don't think anyone here actually thinks of you as a bigot.

I wouldn't count on it. ;)
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Duke Serkol
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2awesome4apossum,Dec 5 2005
03:26 AM
Even my church practiced polygamy at one point.  But it was for very specific reasoning, because there were *SO* many women in our church with so little men.  We no longer have that problem today.

Finally the truth is exposed: Possum is a Gerudo (or one of their descendants).


Anyway, what's this about Jolie and Frodo??
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2awesome4apossum
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Anyway, what's this about Jolie

...she's a whore.

Anyway, in context... it was just an analogy. I chose Frodo because he's a well known character, and Jolie because she's a well known whore.
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Duke Serkol
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Ah, but I take it she didn't actually ask for that part. That seemed way too absurd.
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