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| The Legend of Zelda - Third Quest; discuss Third Quest | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 24 2007, 06:23 AM (1,766 Views) | |
| Duke Serkol | Mar 26 2007, 12:06 PM Post #16 |
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Where'd that Princess go?
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Actually I think it's "everybody but Con" :lol: |
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| ruggedman20 | Mar 26 2007, 01:53 PM Post #17 |
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Child of Destiny
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wow, this is so cool, cant wait to get home and start playing this. kudos! |
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| Conn | Mar 26 2007, 02:06 PM Post #18 |
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We call it life
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I wish you much fun, ruggedman I also play it as soon I can see bszelda again ![]()
Actually I wonder more about your canon solution for the master sword in AST |
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| 2awesome4apossum | Mar 26 2007, 09:32 PM Post #19 |
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Who's your favorite possum?
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Darn strait! This is the patch I've been waiting for ever since I started my forum-activity. ![]() BS ZELDA PRIDE!
I would like to see the title screen replacement package posted, if you're at all willing. Here's my thing: I think that it's rather silly to use the "time patch". As much as it less complicates things, I find that it takes out a nice piece of innovation that makes this game just *that* much more fun. Now obviously you want this to play more like the NES game... I guess this is where we differ in opinion slightly. I just want this to play like a Zelda game instead of a "mostly" Zelda game with theme issues because of it being made for the BS-X. I think that I like the idea of the timed elements still being incorperated. After all, Majora's Mask-- as much as I disliked it-- has timer elements and still is a Zelda game. If I wanted to play the NES version, I'd play the NES version... but this has some nice new features, and a much better engine, so I prefer this version. That's also why I feel that the title "Third Quest" is rather unneccessary. Sure there's a "second quest" attatched on to the end of the first Legend of Zelda, but it's not given a seperate title screen-- because it's really the same adventure, just remixed. My personal opinion always has been, and always will be that the "BS" prefix ought to remain regardless of whether you play it with the mascots, versus a more Zelda-ish theme.
Not to offend here, but I've never really liked that idea, simply because the monsters respawning was very useful for collecting treasures, and I think the game would seem a bit empty without this feature, not to mention it'd be darn hard to replicate the way they respawn in the original LoZ. Besides, now that maku uploaded those two videos, we can see that the monsters DO respawn every time you return to a specific screen, and that it's not just an error in emulation. (And hey: gotta love that intro with all the pictures and neat crap like that.)
I can understand that... but since graphical modifications seem to be the most common and the easiest to make, there's no reason there can't be alternative graphical packs (heck, there already is).
I respectfully disagree, but I also wouldn't mind seeing Duke's Link patch with the gray shield (as opposed to leaving it red)-- making it somewhat of a hybrid between his and the original Link-theme patch.
Do you think you'd be able to make a patch for the BS Legend of Zelda title screen, now that you've managed to insert the "third quest" one? That would be a nice piece of work.
Again, I like the timer... so what'd be great is if you made elements like these all avaliable in seperate patches. Naturally, since you're the author of such a great and complex work, you'd obviously want a complete package avaliable (as the "third quest" player's choice rom, no?), but it'd be cool if a lot of the stuff was optional.
Could you clarify this comment? Is this talking about the "week's objectives" screen? OH! And replace it with the one when you die? That would work as a "quick save" feature, no?
Excellent.
Take your time, take your time ![]() Also: is there any sort of tutorial or anything avaliable on how one would go about altering the "text" (like what Duke did for the modified translation patch)? I remember... I was able to modify it once, but that was a long time ago... and it was after hours of piling through difficult to understand information... and i only *really* managed to screw it up... not really alter it as intended. Anyhow, thank you for your time and for the patches! EDIT: I'm probably missing some stuff, so I'll have to double-check and update it later, but for now... here's what I think would be a set of cool features to see for the traditionally-theme BS Zelda rom to end up as (some of these ideas are taken from the ideas page... however, I helped with some of the suggestions that are on there anyway, so I don't feel too bad for the plajurism): - Have the base patches from ROTO and Dreamer Nom. - Have a modified translation patch (Duke Serkol's). - The intro, instead of saying who made the patches, yadda, yadda, yadda, being something to the effect of "NINTENDO AND ST. GIGA PRESENTS..." Hell, why not throw in a thing with logos? Hmm... I just might feel like making this myself. - The title screen as seen on this page. It's hawt. Possibly animate it. - Fixing the buggy Ghoma in dungeon 8 (whether that's changing it to the blue manhandla, or just fixing it... I'm not sure that it matters, although the former is my ideal). - Make the game save the subscreen maps of dungeons. Clearly, not a priority, but something that would be nice for the perfectionist within me. - Make having the whole Triforce neccessary to enter Ganon's room. Same reasons as above. - Enable the Magic Shield's unused sprites. It'd just be cool. It's like how they never used the music that ROTO found for the actual broadcasted game... but it's cool that it was dug up and can be used for the emulated version. - Prevent slow-downs from the patched game... not sure how one would go about doing it. But if it's possible, more power to ya! - Make the red dots marking the dungeons on the world map appear for the previous weeks. - Make the music that plays when you rescue Zelda go on until you leave the cave. Possibly also stop the game from playing the beginning of the dungeon music as you enter said cave, and prevent it from continuing the letters sfx after Zelda's dialogue is over. - Add the ending screen found here, but of course, change the Link sprite, and make the name and death's dependent upon one's profile information. If credits are added, make them a fancy version of the NES ending credits. Let the people who made the patches be credited in a readme... but let the original Nintendo team be credited here. - Display the correct sprite color in the menu (when you've got the blue or red ring) - Colorize the heart in the save screen menu (although it looks okay being "empty", it'd just be more consistent with the NES version). - Have an intro with the pictures as seen in makuchan's videos. With translated and/or different text. It really all depends on what the translation ends up as. I see no need to have the intro with the items, because it seems slightly redundant (although would be cool), but with the graphical mods-- it might get confusing anyhow. - Use a modified version of Duke Serkol's Link (and have that character seen in the ending screen). Basically just colorize the shield and the animations to be the grey/silverish like in the original Link character patch. - Improve the menu by making the name addition slightly more clean looking (more similar to how it was in LoZ 1). |
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| Duke Serkol | Mar 26 2007, 10:24 PM Post #20 |
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Where'd that Princess go?
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I don't need one: Nintendo put it in the game, so it's in the game :lol: In the name of all the is measured, how long did it take you to write all that Possum?? (And why did oyu do that since most of it is in the Ideas page already?) Anyway
We're working on that (glad you like it too :)) |
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| 2awesome4apossum | Mar 26 2007, 10:43 PM Post #21 |
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Who's your favorite possum?
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Because I was writing the definitive "possum preffered version". I don't like some of the ideas, some were modified, some should stay the same. You get the idea. |
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| Terra Branford | Mar 27 2007, 01:31 AM Post #22 |
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Officially retired
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Duke, we can't really rely too heavily on Nintendo's putting the Master Sword into AST as a viable explanation for it being in the game. AST might just now be explainable as part of the canon and timeline for Zelda, but it's still not recognized as part of the mainstream of games. At best, that it's "in the game" is really only a convenient excuse for why. Besides, how many times have they stuck to their own "canon" in their own timelines? And how many times have the items of one game that shouldn't show up in another, "magically" appear in another? I take that it's in AST with a grain of salt. Plus, recently they were trying to argue amongst Zelda creators which games were in the real history, and how things really fit in to the over all timeline. So that whole thing is as air-tight as a screen door on a submarine. ![]() Why bring that up? Well... not to be an arse, but because that answer has as much "logical" backing to it as Con's ideas on how the Master Sword could be in 3rd Quest. Never mind that it's ~his~ patch he did, and ~his~ work that went into it. He could translate the Old Man to say: "Lo! The most powerful sword, the Lead Sword!" and make it slate gray and have you wandering around the game with a sword intended to be made of lead. While funny as that might be, and as "anti-canon" as it would be... ultimately, he who makes (or patches in this case) the game, gets the final say. Am I right? Of course I am! ![]() I realize I sound like a fish flip-flopping here, but bear with me a moment. The sword, be it a "master" or a "magical"... the name isn't nearly as important as it's appearance and ~meaning~. Well, okay, that and it's "story". Now is it? So let me weave up a story as explaination. Wonder Author Powers, Activate!!!!!!! For all we know, this "Magical Sword" might have been indeed the authentic, genuine, real, honest to goodness Master Sword of lore. Even as far back as the "real" Legend of Zelda for NES. ESPECIALLY in light of the translation calling it the "Most powerful sword". Sure it calls it a "Magical Sword" right after this... but does this really mean to say that the Magical Sword is stronger than the Master Sword of the ages? The sword that bent time, killed Ganon, and cured world hunger? (Okay that last one might not have happened, but you never know! Octorocks might be tasty treats in place of the meat! ANYWAY) Maybe if the Master Sword's power wore down over the ages and was lost to time ~"forever"~, then sure, the Magical Sword would be the strongest in Hyrule now. But I don't think this is the case. With the SERIOUS time difference between ALttP and all the games between it and LoZ, who knows where the sword finally ended up? We can all infer, at least from appearances, if not FACT, that the pedestal from ALttP are the ruins of the fabled "Temple of Time"... and that while the Master Sword was sealed there by the three pendants (much like how it was sealed up in the same way in OoT) that seal was broken down and eroded after a time, much like the magical seal protecting the entrance to the Golden Land. And much like a LOT of the mythical ruins of the ages. Almost everything in Hyrule seems to slowly, but steadily, break down and fade away. Maybe it's Ganon's evil influence, or maybe it's just the nature of that world. Not that this is the point, but that's something to bear in mind when you read "the point". (You're all still reading this, right? La la MONKEY BRAINS! Okay, had to be sure! :P) With all that in mind, it's not a HUGE stretch to also infer that while the Master Sword ~was~ put to rest "forever" in that pedestal originally by ~a~ "Link"... the changing land, the violence of the kingdom over those many generations, the story changing due to different Links and confused people, and even loss of the historical documents (come on, they don't got no computers in Hyrule!!) and all the times the mythical sword and it's hero were needed... maybe the sword was lost to the ages over time, never to be seen again... ...and was found by the mysterious Old Man (or he won it playing poker. He looks like he can bluff rather well, yeah?). The Old man who seems to know EVERYTHING about Hyrule. Who seems to be everywhere, even in two places at the same time. And obviously, knowing that the seals were broken long ago, and maybe being one of the last living "sages", this Old Man would need to know for sure that you were the hero meant to defeat Ganon (and that would be why you need to prove your mastery when you "Master this and you can have it." Key choice of words, yes? I think so. I continue...) and would present it ~only~ to the rightful hero. "Link". After the Temple of Time was lost forever, for all we know, the Master Sword was being passed down generation to generation at this point, by sages, with it's powers slowly fading away as Hyrule slipped further and further away from that Golden power of the Triforce. (I mean just LOOK at Hyrule in these "final" games... over run by monsters, dungeons everywhere and all in bad neighborhoods! And no school zones? Where's Jimmy supposed to learn to read?!) Which would at least in part explain it's "lack" of that stronger power level we see in some of the "earlier games" in the timeline. It can't "upgrade" because it's reached it's zenith after all it's "upgrades" before, and now the power it holds is failing because no one can use it properly. Possibly the only reason it still has the power it does, is because it's held by the true hero of the land, who can wield it's powers correctly, and that hero is chosen by the Triforce and the "gods". "Link". So the sword's name isn't so important really. We can't really and rightfully argue that the true Master Sword was sleeping peacefully, forever after ALttP... any more than we can truly say that the Master Sword is even "one" sword at all. I mean, when you think of the fact that it gets ~tempered~ and ~upgraded~ in ALttP... this can no longer truly be the same mythical weapon it was before. If the sword was already so powerful, then upgrading it should not have been possible. The magic bonds would erode because of this "strengthening", just as surely as anything else done to it. So that makes me wonder just how much the sword in ALttP could be ~the~ Master Sword. Leading me to think "Hey, there are multiples of Link, Zelda, why not the Master Sword too?". Plus it's an excuse to explain the subtile (and major) differences in the sword over the course of the games. ![]() My point? If Con wants to call it the Master Sword in this game, I think I finally can approve. I've re-read parts of the timeline. Looked at the sword in ALttP, OoT (just to see how it looks in the "I'm sealing the sword" animations and at rest) and compared it to Con's patched sword... and it looks like a dead-ringer to me given the 16-bit limitations he has to deal with. That's all that I really need to say "I think this could be ~a~ Master Sword". It doesn't have to be ~the~ Master Sword... the real one probably never even was a real sword to begin with. Merely a fragment of the Goddess powers of the Triforce entrusted to a piece of metal that would be given to the hero one day, and given a fancy name to make it seem really special. ![]() But that's just my forty cents there. Disregard them if you like. Though the quarter I threw in there was kind of shiny. A state quarter at that. Yummy. Maybe I should take it back and buy some bubble gum. I like gum. God I need to start sleeping again, I get weird when I don't sleep. Shushing now.
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| I'm officially retired from beta testing, and resign my duties to those who have the time to do it. | |
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| cent208 | Mar 27 2007, 02:56 AM Post #23 |
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Heir to the Seven
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awesome job Con, 07 is off to an incredible start |
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| Duke Serkol | Mar 27 2007, 02:57 AM Post #24 |
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Where'd that Princess go?
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I don't mean to be rude now but... what the heck are you talking about? Con asked me how the Master Sword could be retrieved and used in AST and I simply answered that since Nintendo put it in it, I don't need to come up with a baseless explanation since it is evident Nintendo wanted it in the game (it isn't even optional as in Oracles). I wasn't saying that this completely undoes ALttP's closing line. It could be just an exception to it. In fact that line was probably thought of specifically in relation to LoZ (in a "yeah, this awesome sword was not in LoZ nor AoL... deal with it" way) so even if we were to intend AST as invalidating it, it would remain true for LoZ until a game comes and outright states the contrary. |
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| Terra Branford | Mar 27 2007, 05:49 AM Post #25 |
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Officially retired
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One can argue it either way. That was my point. And AST, as far as I am concerned (if put in as canon), now invalidates the sword being sealed away forever. That's a fact. And with AoL and LoZ taking place after ALttP and AST, the sword is now up for grabs. But that was just ~my~ take on it. That's ~my~ opinion. That's what ~I~ think. Whether this is 100% right, accurate, or even remotely possible, that's up for debate. And even ~if~ AST places the sword back into it's seal, there is still a chance that the seal would break (as it seems ALL the seals in Zelda games do) and the sword would be "lost" and then likely reclaimed later. That's what the heck I'm talking about. Anything could have happened between ALttP and LoZ. We don't get clarifications one way or the other. We don't even get so much as a "Ha ha, this isn't the Master Sword!!!! HA HA HA HA!!!" in any game, or a "Yes, the Magical Sword is the Master Sword"... and frankly, I doubt anyone gives two spits about this besides us. I vote we start to call it the "Monkey Sword" and have it fire rabid monkeys of doom. This is my attempt at humor, don't take that last line seriously or think I'm being an ass. These kinds of debates are why I don't tend to post anything of worth, I don't come online for debates, I come online to kick back and chillax. |
| I'm officially retired from beta testing, and resign my duties to those who have the time to do it. | |
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| Terra Branford | Mar 27 2007, 08:06 AM Post #26 |
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Officially retired
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I apologize for the double-posting, but I waited too long before editing the above post to include this, and I wanted to include at least some "facts" to further explain what I was talking about before I go to bed. I'm going to try my absolute best to keep it objective and only go on ~in game~ plot points, not my opinions. 1: The Master Sword is laid to rest in the Mysterious Woods in ALttP. 2: The "Magical" Sword is found in a graveyard... which you can get to from the Lost Woods in LoZ. 3: The "Magical" Sword can also be reached from the alternate entrance to the graveyard from "the right" (near D6 in LoZ), much like the alternative entrance to the Mysterious Woods from "the right" (near the Lumber jack's hut in ALttP). 4: The Master Sword in OoT is laid to rest in the Temple of time. 5: The Master Sword from OoT is released from it's seal by the use of three pendants. This is also the case in ALttP. Only now you also require the Book of Mudora to read the inscription. 6: The ENTIRE overworld map of LoZ can fit into the lower right portion of the overworld map of AoL. Proving that LoZ's world and AoL's world are the same place, with LoZ taking place in a MUCH smaller part of the world than Link's later quest in AoL. 7: The "Magical Sword" returns in AoL, but MUCH weaker, and in need of powering up through the gaining of strength by Link. (Exp system) 8: The Master Sword appears in AST to aid the hero of the other world in fighting Ganon. 9: The name "Magical Sword" only appears in text (in game) in the "All of treasures" screen. It is never referenced by name in LoZ. This only happens in BS Legend of Zelda, which may not be canon based on the lack of anything truly stating that it is a continuation of LoZ. Now let's put these facts into a subjective opinion. If the sword from OoT is the same exact sword from ALttP, and is indeed the Master Sword, this infers that something happened... not only to the Temple of Time, but to the castle of Hyrule. Either the temple was moved (unlikely) or it (and the castle) fell into ruin and faded from the land. Leaving only the pedestal in which the sword remained. The need for the book of Mudora to successfully retrieve the sword may be to break whatever seal was added for extra measure... or to prevent our young Link in this game (ALttP) from also being sealed inside the temple of sages. We can further infer that if this is true (the castle faded from the land and was moved to another location) and the sword remained in it's home in the Mysterious Woods, that as time further progressed the pedestal that held the Master Sword safely in place also broke down and fell into ruin. After this point, perhaps the sword became lost... or as the magics that kept the Mysterious Woods "magical" became corrupt, causing all who entered it to become lost and not be able to find their way. Now... this doesn't fully explain why the Master/Magical Sword would end up in the Graveyard. I really don't have an answer for the why. I could make up a bs excuse like "They buried the lost knights of Hyrule in the formerly "sacred ground" of the Mysterious Woods, maybe to obfuscate the notion of the Master Sword being laid to rest there. What better location to lay a holy weapon to rest, than a graveyard? It worked for other special magical items!", or even use the non-canon BS Zelda changes made to the overworld, which preclude that the graveyard only had ~one~ entrance... the Lost Woods. As for my comments about the sword becoming weaker as time progressed... the simple fact that the Magical Sword grew weaker from LoZ to AoL (and I believe that this is the same Link from one game to the next) only proves that the sword is losing it's power without a proper hero to wield it. When the threat of Ganon was gone, the sword wouldn't hold the sacred powers. This could further imply that even if the Master and Magical swords are indeed two seperate blades, that when the power is needed, the hero will always be granted that holy power in his blade, even if it's nothing more than a relic found in some crypt. That's all. I think I shut up for now, unless I haven't pushed too many buttons. |
| I'm officially retired from beta testing, and resign my duties to those who have the time to do it. | |
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| Conn | Mar 27 2007, 12:35 PM Post #27 |
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We call it life
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Thanks a lot, Tre. I guess Duke misunderstood my point you have now explained very elaborately otherwise I assume that his comments would have been more... helpful. To sum up I thought that the master sword remains in the lost woods after ALTTP ~forever~ and I have no right to break canon with including it into TQ. With AST Nintendo obviously breaks its own story which gives me legitimation to say that it could be part of LoZ without breaking canon. Thus adding it is de facto nothing else like adding the Hylian Shield or the Book of Mudora. Oh and even if it happens again that my logical arguments get refused (even if I am right), here's a nice article which give very, very interesting informations which should end this discussion wiki: Master Sword.... "stated on Nintendo's official Zelda website..." that should also solve Duke's canon problems. Possum, many thanks also for your report. I try to answer your comments.
I recently sent Duke a patch which inserts the screen at http://bszelda.zeldalegends.net/pics/bsloz3rdtitle.png It's up to him to release it or not.
Err... maybe you did not understand the purpose of my project. It was meant to disable the timer to make it more LoZ like for those people who like BS Zelda but love Zelda. Feel free to apply the patches I published without the time patch and your wishes are fulfilled.
If you have a room with 100 people I assume you get 101 different answers about the game's name. I could have named the game also "Lost Quest" or whatever but Third Quests fits best, because the story (until we know more through translation of the video), gameplay and everything says that it is nothing else but a third quest to LoZ, Nes. Furthermore we see that the most accurate name for BS Zelda is Map 1 and Map 2, so I adopted this name for my project. As soon Roto's patch is applyabe to Map 2 I can make a fourth quest without thinking about the name thing.
Yep, my opinion differs. But I offered everything to make you patch your own personal BS Zelda ![]()
Possum, you are the very first person who says that he likes the new Link. I could give you an entry in the Hall of Fame for this ![]() Duke's Link is absolute compatible, so just patch it over thirdquest.smc and you have it.
Already done, ask Duke if he publishes it.
Exactly, maybe I manage ![]()
I have no idea. I'd search the hex codes and change it according to a table. Best is if you ask Duke how he succeeded.
I wanted to credit the effort of all the patchers. Nintendo is credited on the title screen. St. Giga... now... so what ![]()
Great idea, now you just have to tell me how ![]()
I will try Most of the other points are already on the ideas page so I don't comment them but hope that they get fixed one day. |
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| Duke Serkol | Mar 27 2007, 03:46 PM Post #28 |
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Where'd that Princess go?
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Yes how unfortunate that "Nintendo's official site" is run by people who would have no problem setting LA during AoL, or that anybody can edit wikipedia to make it say whatever they like. Well, have it whatever way you want guys, it doesn't concern me.
I certainly intend to. But before doing so, there's a few things I want to try out. |
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| Conn | Mar 27 2007, 04:50 PM Post #29 |
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We call it life
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As far I know the canon, the master sword is part of every zelda game where Ganon is defeated at the end, obviously it will not rest forever in the Lost Woods after ALTTP, but is needed in AST (or what is your ~canon~ point to this Duke?). It seems that it is refound in LoZ to ban the evil again (as said - there is no Zelda with Ganon and without the Master Sword). 1000 people, 1003 canon suggestions, I think this could also have happened to the people at Nintendo's official, but it seems that their version solves the canon problem of the availability of the Master Sword in AST - and fits into my version of the "Third Quest". For these reasons I assume that they are right and now it is for me more a bug correction to give it the look of the Master Sword and use this term (like Nintendo did when they replaced the flute with the ocarina). Again, help and suggestions to the look of the sword needed and wanted
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| Duke Serkol | Mar 27 2007, 05:02 PM Post #30 |
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Where'd that Princess go?
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Right, especially in Four Swords Adventures ![]() But about Nintendo's Official website, programmers ans writers (of the storyline) do not work on sites. It's not their job. So yeah, especially in non-Japanese sites everything is written by people like you and me. If their version is official canon, then pretty much everything anybody says about Zelda is :lol: At any rate, I don't wish to argue over this anymore. To each their own
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I also play it as soon I can see bszelda again 
And how many times have the items of one game that shouldn't show up in another, "magically" appear in another? I take that it's in AST with a grain of salt. Plus, recently they were trying to argue amongst Zelda creators which games were in the real history, and how things really fit in to the over all timeline. So that whole thing is as air-tight as a screen door on a submarine. 


9:21 AM Jul 11