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The Legend of Zelda - Third Quest; discuss Third Quest
Topic Started: Mar 24 2007, 06:23 AM (1,765 Views)
Conn
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Yep, think so too. Even if "Third Quest" would fit into canon even with this change to the Master Sword without problems now, it is not and will surely never be ~official canon~ like you hopefully get BS Zelda as soon as you have the full translation.

It is a game from fans for fans and Tre and I made the effort for you all to enjoy it, as well as possible upcoming patches will hopefully do also. ^_^

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Terra Branford
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Nice Wiki page find, Con. I've really got to start looking for resources before I go using my crazy (fuzzy) deductive logic... this would have saved time and typing on my part. :P Either way, all sides are putting down their respective swords and the battle is (hopefully!) done over the name. Now let's get ~constructive~ here, and figure out more ways to improve the patch, and keep it true to it's nature!

Right off the bat, if anyone can remember the picture from page one (I'll wait while you go there, it's okay)... I think the best image for the sword is the second one shown. With the blue hilt, and minimal golden coloring. This fits best with the image of ALttP's sword... at least that's my take.

As for the title screen... I'm wondering if it's possible to dig into ALttP, and see if one can find how to make the scrolling story sequence from ~that~ rom, work in our rom. I know it's going to revolve around inserting a long tile set ~specifically~ for the sake of having those images in the title. It will also require a (possibly significant) expansion of the rom size. I think it can be done. And if anyone can remember an SNES rom with a ~better~ example of the title screen fading into a upwardly scrolling screen that recycles back to the original title screen, let me know! Chances are that I ~have~ the rom of that game, and we can dig into it and rip it's little code apart! :P
I'm officially retired from beta testing, and resign my duties to those who have the time to do it.
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Conn
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Quote:
 
their respective swords and the battle is (hopefully!) done over the name. Now let's get ~constructive~ here, and figure out more ways to improve the patch, and keep it true to it's nature!



Ah, that wasn't a battle but a search for the truth. Yep, lets get constructive:

as far my list is:
- fill the gap in the ivy
- new color for the master sword
- change select screen to that which appears when you die
- end screen

and these I am not sure if I manage
(- blue manhandla)
(- animated title screen)

Any suggestions are welcomed and if I am wrong in any point I am always convincable if I get ~logical~ arguments.
This is the character under which I built this Homepage. BS Zelda was at the beginning even at a lower level as we got Map 2 right now. With the help of your suggestions and your work the Hall of Fame grew and we came very far - farer than I ever expected when I added the first pic with the rom 8 years ago. And we did it together!

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I think the best image for the sword is the second one shown.

Yes it matches best that one from ALTTP, but as good it matches it as boring it looks :(

regarding the animated title screen: it would be very nifty to have it but right now I have no clue how to manage. Priority have also the other points, as well as I am attempting to fix Roto's patch for Map 2. Guess I ~could~ manage.

However, to tell the truth: this third quest was actually meant to become my good-bye present for you to my retirement. I gave the responsibility for the webpage for 75 % to Duke long time ago and acted from the background, because other things got important in my life. Now since Christmas I have spent most of my free-time to work on the webpage, what is the opposite from that what I actually wanted, means that Duke runs the page to 99 %. And even more than the points listed above are waiting, like fixing the Map 2 maps and walkthrough.

Even if Duke and I have obviously not the same opinion sometimes, he's an excellent webmaster and runs the page and keeps the forum alive in a way I never could.
As said before, fixing things like the sekibanwalkthrough, Map 2 overworld map and the last two month patching work with ASM have burned me out in a certain way (Tre knows exactly what I am talking about), and except of Tre, DaMarsMan and Insomniadmx I did not get ~any~ support for my project.
And this is the point. I can't handle all the things alone... and "Third Quest" is perfect enough to actually ~be~ my present for my deserved retirement right away... but: if you support me, I'll keep on supporting you!

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Duke Serkol
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Con,Mar 28 2007
04:47 PM
since Christmas I have spent most of my free-time to work on the webpage, what is the opposite from that what I actually wanted, means that Duke runs the page to 99 %.

Yeah I just happened to have very little time on my hands precisely when we got Map 2, so Con had to do everything. That was terrible bad timing for my other commitments (I'd never say Map 2 had bad timing, any time is a good time for BS Zelda! ;))

Speaking of which, I need to fix the ideas pages... I keep forgetting that.
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Conn
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Oh that wasn't meant to be or to sound like a complain or so, I know that you were very busy that time ^_^ and I like to work for the page - I just say that things went getting me exhausted, and still there are several things on the list. So I informed the people about how things are standing ^_^'

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Terra Branford
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I hope we (as a whole) can convince you not to retire Con. I know you've busted your butt trying to get 3rd Quest to the point it is today... and your work will definitely pave the way to making the cosmetic and asthetic changes to Map-1 and ultimately Map-2. There's no doubt at all that it will happen, and you've added a good portion of your talent into making that a reality.

In a way, I kind of feel that we (the forum, players, ect) often take for granted the kind of work that goes IN to making a game. Even if it's "just a hack" as some might call it. It's not as simple as a bunch of copy-paste actions. There's a lot of code that has to be understood and changed, and a LOT of things that are supposed to work... often don't. (Con you found this out the hard way with that damned Blue Candle in the shop! How many weeks did you work on getting it to finally appear?). So it's frustrating as anything when there seems to be more complaint than praise. We (all of us, me included) need to remember that this isn't being paid for, it's done on Con's (and Duke's, and Roto's, and Dreamer Nom's, and all other patchers) free time... it doesn't ~have~ to be done.

So I just want to thank you, Con, for working your arse off to make the patches you made. And you know already I'm going to help you with all the upgrades and additions you are talking about making (when you are ready and have time) if you want.

There is a ~slight~ worry I have though, regarding the Select screen turning into a "Auto Save". I worry that it will treat it as a "Death" and add a save count to the upgraded Map-1 and Map-2 roms. I know that LoZ had a special "auto save" screen that did NOT do a death count, but we don't have the coding for that in BS titles... well not yet, anyway. So for now, it would count as dying in game. That's really the only worry.

As for the Master Sword image... I kind of changed my mind regarding this... I think that the second from the right is now a better choice. The gem in the hilt, as well as the golden gilding up to the points of the shield guard (while not appearing as much like the master sword) give it a more regal look. I like it. And in the small scale image (game sized) it looks good in Link's hands.

Anyway... I have a few ideas about the title sequence, and Con, you and I have talked about those. Everyone else, I want you to dig through your collective memories and see if you can remember a SNES game that has a scrolling sequence after the title screen. I was thinking "Final Fantasy 3/6" for this idea... because it goes from it's ~animated~ screen eventually to the "credits" screen, with the Magitek Armor riding into the Narche village. HOWEVER, I think you are required to hit a button to make this happen on a new game. This is NOT what we want though... we need a game that has the title transition into the upward scrolling sequence. ALttP is the only one I can think of that does this... but it's only HALF of a screen, with transitioning images in the upper portion. Which isn't a bad idea (if we wanted to include Duke's images he showed us from the BS Zelda video) and have the items, or STORY scrolling up. However, for 3rd Quest, we want to make the items scroll.

I am not a patcher, not of any sort, but I ~do~ have just about every SNES rom known to exist (minus bad dumps and overdumps), and if you know of a game that does what we need for Map-1/2, I'll be happy to give it to Con or Duke, or whoever wants to disect the code. Now that we know we can expand a rom to almost any size, and change it to "Hi-Rom" with Lunar... well we might even be able to condense AST into ~one~ rom with a small loader menu.

But that's all future projects. I shut up now. :D
I'm officially retired from beta testing, and resign my duties to those who have the time to do it.
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Duke Serkol
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Tre,Mar 28 2007
09:35 PM
I know that LoZ had a special "auto save" screen that did NOT do a death count, but we don't have the coding for that in BS titles... well not yet, anyway. So for now, it would count as dying in game. That's really the only worry.

Actually LoZ's (very manual) save, did add to the death count.

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if we wanted to include Duke's images he showed us from the BS Zelda video

Don't you mean Makuchan's?

On the subject of free time and patches, we try. And yeah, I know that wasn't an accusation, I just wanted to add that :)
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Terra Branford
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If I ~remember~ correctly, Duke, you are the one that had been going around for MONTHS with an image of Link facing Octorocks and Peahats in a dungeon... LONG before we got the video (and map-2) from Makuchan... I thought you deserved some credit for that find of yours, and in a BS Zelda Map-1 and Map-2 patch, I think it only fitting (and right) that those images be cleaned up and refit into the rom. We may not be able to fully restore the images to their "crisp" look, but we might be able to make them look good enough. And then having the Japanese text "translated" in the bottom window to tell us what's being said... well there you go, as close to the literal story given in the downloaded release. And for those who want a "St. Giga" title screen? We can of course remove the "credits" from the main page and have it there, followed by the new LoZ title screen with Nintendo credits for 1986 and 1995. Simple in idea, but it WILL take a LOT of work. Though I am sure this will be easier to do, than putting in the actual Treasures screen... because BS Zelda and ALttP are both SNES titles that could likely exchange code. Why do I think this? Simple. AST and ALttP were almost the same exact game... ALttP code exists in AST (this is proven fact already)... maybe the link between AST and BS Zelda code isn't too hard to replicate?

And I have been playing the living daylights out of the Zelda Classics GCN disc, and use the "auto save" like nuts to cheat myself to tons of money at the start of the game... and when I reset the game I see no added "deaths". Same with the GBA version of the game, which I beat. I didn't see a "games played" listing for my saves I did... not that I can say that counts.

Either way, for now the only way to save ~is~ to die... and at least this way lets us save the game without having to kill yourself off.

And Duke, I know you aren't accusing anyone of anything... and I did want to add (but was pressed for time when I posted) that the same goes for how people initially made a quick "We praise Duke and Euclid!!!" fanfare over AST's fixed indoors... and then nothing. Having done a lot of work in the past myself in the gaming community and in website design, I know it's annoying and frustrating to spend HOURS and WEEKS of work on something, for a "Yay! This is nice!! ....however!" reply. :P
I'm officially retired from beta testing, and resign my duties to those who have the time to do it.
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Duke Serkol
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Tre,Mar 29 2007
02:22 AM
If I ~remember~ correctly, Duke, you are the one that had been going around for MONTHS with an image of Link facing Octorocks and Peahats in a dungeon... LONG before we got the video (and map-2) from Makuchan... I thought you deserved some credit for that find of yours

Thanks, but that was only one of many.

Yeah, it has been changed in the GC and GBA re-releases.

Oh and don't worry, I fixed AST because I wanted to see it fixed. The praise was a nice bonus ^_^
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Terra Branford
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But the point stands that you brought us the first image, which is what really matters most. Either way, if I can get the images of the opening sequence ~clearly~ (which is where a GOOD quality video is really desperately needed) I could clean them up a little bit in Photoshop or something. I've become a bit better with that sort of thing. Then we could attempt to compile code to insert it with a "BS Zelda" title screen.

As for the saves. If the original did it that way (with the counting it as a death when you use the emergency save) then I forgot all about it. I don't think I have to test it, because I'm sure you did. So this doesn't really happen to be a problem in Map-1/2 if it counts it.

And I know you wanted to see AST fixed. I still would love to see just how much a rom can be expanded ~successfully~ and if it could allow the games to be condensed from four weeks into one game. If so, there will have to be extra code inserted to carry the save over, but Euclid ~did~ state a way to make the srams from one week carry over your items into another one ~without~ glitching the game. If we pool our resources and ideas together, we're likely to come up with something. :P

And I still praise you for AST, Duke. I hope you know that. And the timeline, too. Which came in handy for me lately.
I'm officially retired from beta testing, and resign my duties to those who have the time to do it.
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Conn
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Thanks Tre :)

Actually I am more awared what happens if you press the select button by accident. There is no "return to game option you could choose...

Yep, I think this Master Sword is now the best choice we have - it looks more like the master sword with the blue handle and is more exciting, means it is the best compromise ;)


About merging the roms. It is no problem to copy and paste Map 2 into a new area of Map 1. Also it is no problem to make a jump to the beginning of Map 2 as soon you leave the cave after Map 1. The problem are the intern jumps (jmp and jsl) - they count from address 0 and they all have to be corrected then... I guess this means a LOT of work. Also I don't know if there will occur further problems.

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Terra Branford
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I was also worried about accidently hitting "Select" without wanting to... however for me, using my PS2 controller to play, it's not easy to hit it by mistake. I guess though it could be a danger.

And yes, I think that is the best compromise sword wise. :)

As for the rom merger... I was thinking there doesn't need to be a jump to point at a pre-set point in Map-1. Have you played games like "Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt/Track Meet" where you had three games in one? (or other multipack NES and SNES games with multiple games to choose from?) If you have, then you already understand what I'm getting at. Since hitting "Start" at the end of a quest boots you back to the title screen, why not have it instead boot you to the "Rom selection" screen... giving a chose of "Third Quest" or "Fourth Quest"? At least until the op code flags and point triggers can be setup not to cause the game to mistakenly put you into the wrong quest because of your savefile. :D
I'm officially retired from beta testing, and resign my duties to those who have the time to do it.
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Garrett
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There's bound to be some Super 4-in-1 pirate to base this off... :P
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Conn
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Cool, which blade do you prefer Tre... grey is unfortunately not an option - we'll have to choose from the colors I suggested :)

Now, I guess we have to try what happens when I replace the select screen. Maybe it's just that easy that you press select again and return to the game (but I guess not).

So, maybe we just have to look into smb allstars then and look at Nintendo's solution. But - my assumption is that they actually must have changed the jml:s and jsl:s.

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Duke Serkol
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Tre,Mar 29 2007
05:28 AM
And the timeline, too. Which came in handy for me lately.

Ah yes, have you been playing those games you were still missing using it as a sort of plot guide? I think you said something along those lines was in your plans for TWW.
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