Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to BS Zelda. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
My timeline; Attempting to fit the BS games in
Topic Started: Jan 12 2013, 08:03 PM (4,920 Views)
joesteve1914
Member Avatar
Sage
This is my timeline. Feel free to ask any questions you have of it!

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/dua3n
Translating Ripened Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love-https://tingletranslation.blogspot.com
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Duke Serkol
Member Avatar
Where'd that Princess go?
Admin
That's very nice, but aren't you forgetting something?

;)

It doesn't fix the problems of HH's timeline, but seeing as its only aim is to fit in the excluded games I suppose that's alright.

However, you may want to somehow justify "CD-i Link" already being considered a hero worthy of fighting Ganon (which he is depicted as, no matter which of the three games is placed first).
Not sure how you can do it without the NES games before them (I was going to suggest the cartoon/comics but they have the very same problem themselves).
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
joesteve1914
Member Avatar
Sage
Duke Serkol,Jan 12 2013
08:43 PM
However, you may want to somehow justify "CD-i Link" already being considered a hero worthy of fighting Ganon (which he is depicted as, no matter which of the three games is placed first).
Not sure how you can do it without the NES games before them (I was going to suggest the cartoon/comics but they have the very same problem themselves).

Well, basically for those I just said they are "dreams" because at the end of BS Zelda, Hyrule supposedly disappears. (I'm still working on fitting the cartoons and comics in)

Quote:
 
That's very nice, but aren't you forgetting something?

Hah, I forgot about that.
Translating Ripened Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love-https://tingletranslation.blogspot.com
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JamesBond007
Member Avatar
Sage
In my opinion, Zelda Timeline is broken almost beyond repair. I've tried to make a flawless timeline, but without success. All timelines created by me are flawed at some point, but less flawed than Hyrule Historia's "official" one (yes, I'm putting this word in quotes on purpose).

However, Link's death is included in one of my timelines, but in a different game (Four Swords Adventures). It has two differences from the "official" timeline:
- FSA is a sequel to Four Swords, and it takes place before Ocarina of Time
- A Link to the Past is a sequel to FSA, if Link loses the final battle with Ganon

I could try to put your games in this timeline, Joesteve1914, but my ideas are sometimes different:
- Duke mentioned Zelda Game & Watch. This fits as a sequel to The Adventure of Link
- Ancient Stone Tablets placement is correct - after Oracle games, at the same time as Link's Awakening
- If you don't consider Map 1 & 2 as just the 3rd & 4th Quests, then their placement fits well (Link loses in Oracle games), but if you really want to include the CD-i games, this is my suggestion - they could take place after TAoL (like ZG&W), but with one exception - Link is defeated (Game Over, Return of Ganon).
My current Zelda "Skyward Split" Timeline:
---/--TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP/OoX/AST/LA--???--ALBW--TLoZ/TAoL
SS--OoT--TWW/PH--ST
---------\MM--TP
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
joesteve1914
Member Avatar
Sage
Quote:
 
If you don't consider Map 1 & 2 as just the 3rd & 4th Quests, then their placement fits well (Link loses in Oracle games)


Actually, I didn't really mean that Link loses, but that the player never linked the two games, so Link only saves one oracle.

Quote:
 
Zelda Game & Watch. This fits as a sequel to The Adventure of Link

Yeah, I agree with that one.

Quote:
 
if you really want to include the CD-i games, this is my suggestion - they could take place after TAoL (like ZG&W), but with one exception - Link is defeated (Game Over, Return of Ganon).


I never thought about that one. I guess that could be, since there really could be another timeline created if you die in AoL if you think about it.
Translating Ripened Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love-https://tingletranslation.blogspot.com
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Duke Serkol
Member Avatar
Where'd that Princess go?
Admin
joesteve1914,Jan 13 2013
06:56 PM
for those I just said they are "dreams" because at the end of BS Zelda, Hyrule supposedly disappears.

I don't believe you should take that too literally. What would the point be of saving Hyrule only for it to disappear? It seems to me that it likely vanishes from the Hero's point of view but in reality it's the Hero that's vanishing from it and returning home.
Besides, whose dream would they be?

JamesBond007,Jan 13 2013
09:58 PM
- Duke mentioned Zelda Game & Watch. This fits as a sequel to The Adventure of Link

It could, but I think it works better as an interquel between LoZ and AoL. The second NES game seems like a perfect wrap up for the story. Link has the entire Triforce which presumably allows him to easily rid Hyrule of the monsters Ganon left behind which were slowly leading it to ruin and to top it off, he hooks up with the awakened Zelda and is prophesized to become the next great king.

Given all that, it really would make little sense for the dragons of the Game & Watch to be able to wage war against Hyrule. Link would just Triforce them out of existance.

The only thing that seemingly points to a post AoL placement is the fact that Link and Zelda are described as being sweethearts, but it's perfectly possible that the Zelda of the first game entertained that kind of relationship with him for a while.

JamesBond007,Jan 13 2013
09:58 PM
- Ancient Stone Tablets placement is correct - after Oracle games, at the same time as Link's Awakening

The placement of the Oracle games is one of HYrule Historia's biggest fuck ups (if not THE biggest)... but that's an entirely different matter.

JamesBond007,Jan 13 2013
09:58 PM
- If you don't consider Map 1 & 2 as just the 3rd & 4th Quests, then their placement fits well (Link loses in Oracle games), but if you really want to include the CD-i games, this is my suggestion - they could take place after TAoL (like ZG&W), but with one exception - Link is defeated (Game Over, Return of Ganon).

I'm not really a fan of HH's random "Link loses for whatever reason"...

Even so, I've been thinking about the whole CD-i/Cartoon-BS Zelda thing and doesn't seem possible to work all of those in one timeline.
The CD-i games rely on some version of the NES games (at least the first) having happened, one with Link in it. So they don't really work as follow ups of BS Zelda.
However, when we get down to it, the cartoon and comic don't work as follow ups to the NES games either because in the cartoon Ganon is still alive and in possession of the Triforce of Power, so either something went differently or something happened in the aftermath. Even worse, the comic clearly states that, yes, AoL happened but the princess under a sleep spell was the one Link saved from Ganon (and that it was Ganon who cursed her).

So here's what I'd suggest you, another three-prong split:

BS Zelda
/
--- LoZ - G&W - AoL
\
Cartoon/Comic - CD-i

The split would occur some time before the Triforce of Courage was put in the Great Temple, with the Princess Zelda of that time never being put into eternal sleep in the branch that leads to the cartoon/comic (and perhaps with Link never returning to Hyrule from his voyage at sea after LA in the branch that leads to BS Zelda)
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
KiddoCabbusses
Member Avatar
The overly enthused BS-X nerd.
If we're gonna keep up timeline wars, I'll say this:

I'd try not to have a ridiculous amount of timeline splits. The OoT one is enough.

I'd also not consider anything not released on Nintendo hardware (why would anyone WANT the CD-i games canon?) or non-game media (If we're gonna bother with the US cartoons and comics, then what nextt? There's loads of Zelda mangas with vastly different interpretations of the storylines, but they aren't even considered for timeline debates.)

As for BS Zeldas, here's two things I can think of it.

1) It fits easiest in a timeline where NES Zelda Map 1/Map 2 does not happen, but is probably best placed parallel to it.

2) Besides the Zelda timeline, the BS Zeldas also probably relate loosely to the BS-X Narrative which has it's own timeline and narrative. In this timeline, relative to the player character (but not to the Zelda timeline), BS Zelda Map 1, Map 2 and BS Zelda: Inishie no Sekiban happened in chronological order of release.

3) Map 1/Map 2 probably does not go in the same timeline as LttP/Sekiban, because in both games, Ganon is not aware of how much a threat the player character is. Logically, if they happened in the same timeline, Map 1/Map 2 Ganon would go "OH SHIT IT'S THAT KID AGAIN, I'M FUCKED."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
joesteve1914
Member Avatar
Sage
Quote:
 
It could, but I think it works better as an interquel between LoZ and AoL. The second NES game seems like a perfect wrap up for the story. Link has the entire Triforce which presumably allows him to easily rid Hyrule of the monsters Ganon left behind which were slowly leading it to ruin and to top it off, he hooks up with the awakened Zelda and is prophesized to become the next great king.

Given all that, it really would make little sense for the dragons of the Game & Watch to be able to wage war against Hyrule. Link would just Triforce them out of existance.

The only thing that seemingly points to a post AoL placement is the fact that Link and Zelda are described as being sweethearts, but it's perfectly possible that the Zelda of the first game entertained that kind of relationship with him for a while.


Yeah, I agree. It probably does go between LoZ and AoL.

Quote:
 
The placement of the Oracle games is one of HYrule Historia's biggest fuck ups (if not THE biggest)... but that's an entirely different matter.

I actually have to disagree with that, as the ending shows Link sailing away on the same boat.

Quote:
 
I'd also not consider anything not released on Nintendo hardware


They were approved by Nintendo.

Translating Ripened Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love-https://tingletranslation.blogspot.com
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
KiddoCabbusses
Member Avatar
The overly enthused BS-X nerd.
joesteve1914,Jan 14 2013
09:22 PM
They were approved by Nintendo.

Technically approved, under Nintendo's original plans to team up with Phillips for the SNESCD add-on.

The games being made after the fact were basically contract exploitation. Why else do you think Nintendo Power (Rest your soul) loved mocking these games, even over stuff like Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland? It's not just the games sucked, but the entire circumstance that led to their existence (The SNESCD fiasco) they regret.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
joesteve1914
Member Avatar
Sage
KiddoCabbusses,Jan 14 2013
04:25 PM
Why else do you think Nintendo Power (Rest your soul) loved mocking these games, even over stuff like Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland?

I actually thought Rosy Ruppeeland was even even better than PH and ST.

I just remembered that Tingles Balloon Fight takes place on the Great Sea! I'm adding that to my timeline soon... I also have to find a place for the other 2 tingle games...

Does anyone know really what Tingle's Love balloon trip is about? I once attempted to translate it, but the only thing I had missing was a translation...
Translating Ripened Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love-https://tingletranslation.blogspot.com
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Duke Serkol
Member Avatar
Where'd that Princess go?
Admin
KiddoCabbusses,Jan 14 2013
08:12 PM
I'd try not to have a ridiculous amount of timeline splits. The OoT one is enough.

That's how I feel too, but I'm not against speculating otherwise.

KiddoCabbusses,Jan 14 2013
08:12 PM
what nextt? There's loads of Zelda mangas with vastly different interpretations of the storylines, but they aren't even considered for timeline debates.)

I've been wondering... if I have the Link of ALttP as a different person from that of Oracles and LA, after which should Lilto's Oath fit?

KiddoCabbusses,Jan 14 2013
08:12 PM

As for BS Zeldas, here's two things I can think of it.

1) It fits easiest in a timeline where NES Zelda Map 1/Map 2 does not happen, but is probably best placed parallel to it.

Agreed... but that's pretty much what we were going for already.

KiddoCabbusses,Jan 14 2013
08:12 PM
Map 1/Map 2 probably does not go in the same timeline as LttP/Sekiban, because in both games, Ganon is not aware of how much a threat the player character is. Logically, if they happened in the same timeline, Map 1/Map 2 Ganon would go "OH SHIT IT'S THAT KID AGAIN, I'M FUCKED."

Right because that's totally the attitude Ganon displays whenever he is again confronted by a mute kid dressed in green and named Link :rolleyes:

joesteve1914,Jan 14 2013
10:22 PM
Quote:
 
The placement of the Oracle games is one of HYrule Historia's biggest fuck ups (if not THE biggest)... but that's an entirely different matter.

I actually have to disagree with that, as the ending shows Link sailing away on the same boat.

Except that's the boat from LA, not ALttP, so it's entirely possible that the Oracle games were retconning the placement of the previous GameBoy game. Or just reusing yet another sprite besides nearly everything else from LA ;)
What is NOT possible is for the Link and Zelda from ALttP and Oracles to be the same since Zelda introduces herself to him in both games.

...granted, Hyrule Historia could be retconning THAT, but if so they should have had the courtesy of noting it properly (like they made a note to say that games not mentioned were to be considered not part of canon).
And even then, it would be a poor decision because you would end up having the same Link fighting Ganon twice in the span of just a few years, way to undermine the significance of the confronation from something you may experience once in a lifetime to something that can just occur to you twice within a couple of years (not to mention Link actually looks younger in Oracles).
Also you'd think if the protagonist had already fought Ganon once in the recent past they'd bring it up. You know, like in AST, that game Link is absent from and yet their battle is still mentioned several times.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
KiddoCabbusses
Member Avatar
The overly enthused BS-X nerd.
Duke Serkol,Jan 15 2013
02:51 AM
KiddoCabbusses,Jan 14 2013
08:12 PM
Map 1/Map 2 probably does not go in the same timeline as LttP/Sekiban, because in both games, Ganon is not aware of how much a threat the player character is. Logically, if they happened in the same timeline, Map 1/Map 2 Ganon would go "OH SHIT IT'S THAT KID AGAIN, I'M FUCKED."

Right because that's totally the attitude Ganon displays whenever he is again confronted by a mute kid dressed in green and named Link :rolleyes:

The thing there is, each Link is established as a different Link. Ganon's never fought the same Link twice, to my memory (besides perhaps the Oracle games depending on your timeline placement... and obviously since Ganon is insane there, his characterization is different.)

Whereas the BS-X player character, depending on circumstances, can be -literally- the same person. If these were both in the same timeline, Map 1 or Map 2 Ganon would recognize him or her, and would probably be baffled at encountering the very same person who -literally- killed him hundreds of years ago resurfacing, even -younger- than he/she was before, to kill him yet again. I mean, try to imagine that dialog. I just have difficulty envisioning it as anything other than "WHAT? YOU AGAIN? AHSGIHDAGIDSAJGIJFIEFD"

Anyway, I just thought of something else.

If BS Zelda Map 1/Map 2 and Inishie no Sekiban are in different timelines, then this by extension would also mean that the Imprisoning War happened in multiple timelines identically.

But then, that's going places that baffle me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
joesteve1914
Member Avatar
Sage
I recall it saying somewhere in the voice acting that Ganon had mastered the power of "invisibility". That's probably a reference to the fact that Ganon can turn invisible with the lights on in Map 1/2 but not AST. That means he's more powerful in LoZ and Map 1/2 than in LttP and AST. Maybe because of that, he though he could beat the protagonist this time?
Translating Ripened Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love-https://tingletranslation.blogspot.com
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Conn
Member Avatar
We call it life
Admin
I normally keep myself out of canon discussions... but two points by me:
(1) JS, really looks nice and professional ^_^
(2)
Quote:
 
Whereas the BS-X player character, depending on circumstances, can be -literally- the same person.


As I understand it: ~you~ are the mascot from earth, helping Hyrule in the other dimension. So you are of course the same person (mascot) fighting Ganon in both (Map1/2 and AST).
Since time goes differently between our dimensions (1 hour Hyrule= 1 week on earth) it is imaginable that you can also travel to different epoches. AST can easily be canoned: Link is caught in a dream (LA) and Ganon somehow resurrected, as it is stated in the game itself. So a hero from earth has to be borrowed.
As for Map1/2 the situation is much worse. Is it a parallel dimension (uh,oh hopefully we keep Tuffy off) like Link failed or was never born? Or is it a completely other epoche and a native Hero wasn't born at this time?
(in realitiy it is of course just a remake with better graphics and the programmers did not think about this)...

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Duke Serkol
Member Avatar
Where'd that Princess go?
Admin
KiddoCabbusses,Jan 15 2013
06:28 AM
The thing there is, each Link is established as a different Link.

Which would be a very good point if not for the fact that Nintendo also established in TP that the hero can be identified by his clothes. If you recall, they are given to Link by the Light Spirits and people in town actually react to his clothes saying that he's got lots of balls going around dressed like the hero would be... of course when a young man with those clothes makes his way to Ganon then there's little doubt that he's the genuine article. Heck, in TWW Ganondorf goes so far as to recognize Link as the Hero of Time reborn and he certainly did not panic, rather he was eager to get a rematch.

Con,Jan 15 2013
02:21 PM
AST can easily be canoned: Link is caught in a dream (LA) and Ganon somehow resurrected, as it is stated in the game itself. So a hero from earth has to be borrowed.

Not "somehow", in the end it is revealed that Ganon himself brought the hero to Hyrule, knowing that he/she would channel the power of the land of Hyrule and planning to syphon off that power in order to resurrect himself.

Con,Jan 15 2013
02:21 PM
As for Map1/2 the situation is much worse. Is it a parallel dimension (uh,oh hopefully we keep Tuffy off) like Link failed or was never born? Or is it a completely other epoche and a native Hero wasn't born at this time?

I would say it's either just a "what if" scenario or an offshot timeline, not a parallel dimension (that would presumably be something like Termina, quite different from Hyrule) nor a different era (what are the odds of the same identical events playing out twice in one timeline?)
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums. Reliable service with over 8 years of experience.
Learn More · Register Now
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The Legend of Zelda Series · Next Topic »
Add Reply