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- What Reasoning behind DBE being the way it is ticks you off the most?
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| What Reasoning behind DBE being the way it is ticks you off the most? | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 8 2009, 01:59 AM (434 Views) | |
| Superraizen | Apr 8 2009, 01:59 AM Post #1 |
Autobot
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Well the titles self explanatory. I know even if you like the movie or are excited for it I'm willing to bet its not what you were imagining( not for the better either) when you first heard of a DB LAM . So there's a lot of reasoning to why DBE turned out the way it did. From time, the writers strike, to the talent invovled. What ticks you off the most? For me its the saying that they needed to make it how it was to appeal to people that never seen DB before. It's like wtf? I and every DB fan at some point had never seen it before. The first episode of DB or DBZ to be more exact that I saw was when Goku was fighting Frieza as a Super Saiyan ( I'll never forget that cause at the time I thought that was Goku when he was old, I went to Ann & Hope the next day and they had a SS Goku toy and a regular Goku. I bought regular Goku cause I didn't want Goku when he was an old man, when I found out what SS was I was pissed). Anyways I digress, my point is I was hooked into the DB series towards the end of the Frieza saga, granted I was younger. But that also reminds me after I was into DB for some time I bought the new VHS of when Trunks arrives to tell them about Goku landing and when he killed Frieza and all that. I was in Virgina and saw it, was watching with my cousin who must of been early 30's. He never saw DB before, when the VHS was done he asked me if I wanted to go to the store and buy the next one because he wanted to see what happens. My point being DB is good as it is, if people never seen it before it makes no sense to change it. Either they like it or they won't but at least if they didn't like it, then you know they just don't like DB. If someone who has never seen DB was to watch this film and didn't like it. They might assume DB sucks, when in reality it might be something that's totally up there ally. Sorry for the long post. Edited by Superraizen, Apr 8 2009, 02:00 AM.
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| BladeRunner | Apr 8 2009, 02:22 AM Post #2 |
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Autobot
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The fact of the matter is that if DBE is a hit then DB has a second chance because I predict that people will automatically associate DBE with DB if they only know that this is a DB movie. I think that the only group of people who know that this isn't a "DB" movie are us, the hardcore fans. The rest will think that this is just a DB movie like the rest of the superhero movies. So, if this is successful, then that will definitely do justice to the series in terms of gaining more popularity and notice around the world and in America, hopefully especially in America. That doesn't mean that the film will be of a high quality. But success and quality don't always correlate, since quality is so subjective. Don't get me wrong though, I really do wish that this movie was made with a better team and had a different look to it as I have a pretty good idea of what it will look like. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to be pissed at the studio. They're making a movie in order to bring more profit to the studio and hopefully that will create a chain reaction that will result in a DB rebirth among the masses. I stretch but you never know. So, that's the real reason why I support this film, that and because I want to see DBZ in live action as I've said dozens of times. |
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| Reptile | Apr 8 2009, 04:14 PM Post #3 |
Battle Angel
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yeah you all got a point... the thing is the adaptation strays too much away from the actual source material, period! That's why it ticks off most fans. There are so many great moments in DB like the big budokai tournaments, the funny very first scenes when Bulma found Goku all abandonned by himself, the huge battle against Piccolo Daimao, the red ribbon army had some cool moments too and what do we get as result? We get the very very basic of it and absolutely no background... You know what the problem was? They wanted to hop into DBZ, not DB, that's why it's all so rushed. And if you check out all the interviews there's allready a script for the next movie and everybody was all talking about that they loved to go into the further movies. But then again, I don't know in wich thread we discussed this but if the next movie will be DBZ, and if you know how different DBE is, then how the hell will they adapt DBZ? The thing that tickles me off also is that everybody complains about Krillin not being in it, but what about Kami?? Have you guys ever thought about it how you start DBZ without Kami San? Just thinking about how they will screw around with the story again makes me wanna cry. And srry but adding Kami San in the beginning of the next movie just to make us fans happy, then I'd rather have no Kami San at all.. And what about the Z gang in the beginning of the Z series? Think about it, what is left about it if you follow DBE? I really almost sh*t in my pants from laughing when I realised that the Z gang in the next movie will only exist out of Goku, Piccolo and littleGohan...That's right! There's no Tien,no CHauzu, no Krillin, there is a Yamcha but he's too lame to really participate the battle so there's like only Piccolo, Goku and little Gohan to stand in front of Vegeta and Nappa...what a shame hahahaha!!! I'll rest my case here cause I think my post is getting long |
| It's all part of the great circle...good is connected with evil...strength with weakness...understand this matter and prevail(Kami San) | |
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| Frankie | Apr 8 2009, 05:43 PM Post #4 |
Autobot
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what ticks me off the most is the whole idea of high school, cause we all know that a wild monkey kid living in the woods would have been more awesome and second thing, the fact that they screwed up or left unexplained some important stuff, like eclipse-Oozaru, and oozaru being controlled by piccolo. i think they tried to go "the easy way" making goku an highschooler like in spider-man, smallville, transformers, harry potter and so on, and they made the movie too much realistic and serious, which is basically the opposite of dragonball, which was weird and grotesque. |
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Omnia enim stolidi magis admirantur amantque, inversis quae sub verbis latitantia cernunt, veraque constituunt quae belle tangere possunt auris et lepido quae sunt fucata sonore. Indeed, the stupid most admire and love all that is scarcely discernible, hidden by abstruse words, and accept as true all things that sweetly caress the ear, and that are masked by a pleasant sound. --Titus Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, circa 80 B.C.-- 
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| line_genrou | Apr 8 2009, 06:42 PM Post #5 |
Lillim
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I agree 100% with Reptile. |
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| Vadakin | Apr 8 2009, 08:36 PM Post #6 |
Battle Angel
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Kami isn't vital to the story though...he trains Goku, dies when Piccolo dies, comes back and then merges with Piccolo - and that's pretty much it. Sure he created the Dragonballs, but if you just combine him with Piccolo from the start then it solves a lot of problems. As for Krillin...well he's what drives Goku over the edge. The first time he died, Goku went looking for revenge and the second time he died Goku became a Super Saiyan. These are two events that are important in Goku's life, especially since the rules of the Earth Dragonballs say that a person can only be wished back once. So what does this mean? Well I hate to play devil's advocate but there is a way around this as well...have Frieza kill Roshi or Chi Chi. I'm not saying that this is what they should do, but it is an option that Wong may be considering. Having said that, given the backlash over the lack of Krillin in DBE, I have a theory. Maybe Krillin will die alongside Goku at the hands of Raditz and they will train in the afterlife together. As for what pisses me off...well it's that they went too far. They tried to make a film that appealed to a mass audience but they went too far in that direction. Look at the successful comic book movies from the past few years. X-Men, Spider-Man, The Dark Knight...they all made changes to better suit the mainstream but they managed to keep the essence of the characters and story intact. I've said it before. Break it down into its most basic parts and build from there. You can make a crowd pleasing Dragonball movie without straying too far from the source material. It is possible. The problem with Fox is that they think their audiences are stupid (given the numbers for X-men 3 they may have a point). They think we can't handle a full sized Galactus or a monkey-boy who grew up in the woods and fought bad guys. They targeted kids for this movie but the truth is, most of the fans of Dragonball are in their late teens and older. Yes there are young teens and kids who like it but those who grew up watching it when it first became a hit in the west have all grown up now. I'm 24. I spent my teenage years watching Dragonball. This new movie seems a little too "kiddie" for me. I don't mean I want lots of violence and sex jokes. I want something that I can enjoy as much as I did that show. The first time I saw Dragonball Z was during the Cell Saga when Trunks fought Cell. It was the episode where Vegeta loses to Perfect Cell and Trunks steps in. I'd never seen or heard of it before and it wasn't until Cartoon Network ran a marathon of the entire series of Z that I caught up on what was actually going on. But I got into it pretty quickly. With a movie you have 2 hours or so to bring people into that world, but you don't do it by trying to relate to the audience by any means necessary, you do it by simplifying the concept and breaking it down into its core elements. You let the movie guide you through that world. You don't force feed the audience with stereotypical 90210 BS. Characters can have elements to them that are relatable but you don't build that character around trying to be relatable. Take Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. He's a farmboy. Young, ambitious, wants adventure. Many can relate to that. But it's achieved by simple things like looking at the binary sunset, not by having him in Mos Eisley High School. Heck Luke isn't even our window into that world, it's the droids who guide us through...two machines programmed to act human. The problem though is that Fox doesn't care about the source material. They don't care about the fans or even how to make an entertaining film that really does appeal to lots of people. As Tom Rothman put it...and I quote: "F*** the fans. We already have their money." The sad thing is, there was a movie that came out last year, starring Jet Li and Jackie Chan called The Forbidden Kingdom, which like Dragonball was (loosely) based on Journey To The West and it felt more like Dragonball than anything I've seen so far of DBE. |
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| Reptile | Apr 9 2009, 04:37 AM Post #7 |
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Battle Angel
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hmmm...I don't really agree with that. Sure it's an easy way to present it but I think the Piccolo - Kami connection is something that brings Dragonball towards a higher level. It shows us that everything is somehow connected to each other, also good and evil(a Yin Yang kind of thing). And I loved the last episode of DB right after Goku defeated Piccolo: Kami looked over all the mess he made and looked like "oh my god what have I done...", asking himself what kind of God he accually was for this planet...it brings in some ethical issues in here about responsability... So I'm a bit dissapoined that he isn't in it. Just my thoughts. For the rest of your reply I agree |
| It's all part of the great circle...good is connected with evil...strength with weakness...understand this matter and prevail(Kami San) | |
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| Vadakin | Apr 9 2009, 01:13 PM Post #8 |
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Battle Angel
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Again though that can easily be accomplished with Piccolo fighting with his dual nature. When he trains Gohan you can have him gradually come to terms with his good side and that makes his sacrifice that much more meaningful. The only possible reason to have a separate entity as Kami is to have him gather the Dragonballs as part of King Kai's plan to save the Nameks but that could be accomplished with Roshi or pretty much anyone else who doesn't go to Namek. Heck, if Fox do what I think they could do and have Frieza come to Earth instead, then Kami will serve no purpose whatsoever. Sure, he recombines with Piccolo (Dragonball: Rise of Kamiccalo?) but it has little impact. Cell still ends up absorbing the Androids and Piccolo still ends up being weak compared to the villain. You have to be ruthless when adapting Dragonball. It's too long, even without the filler and has too many characters. I completely understand why Ramsey and Wong felt they had to cut what they did. Now they went about it completely the wrong way, losing sight of the core characters and the story, but it's the type of thing that needs to be done. If you actually break it down, the only required characters for a sequel are Raditz (and that's debatable), Vegeta, Gohan, Goku, Chi Chi, Piccolo and King Kai. I suppose Roshi should be in it, Nappa isn't necessarily required though he plays off Vegeta well. Yajirobe, Yamcha, Tien and everyone in Other World apart from Kai are unnecessary. Yamcha and Roshi are in the first so they would stick around though. Everything the other characters do though can be accomplished by already established characters. Imagine instead of "The Z Fighters" taking on the Saiyans, it was just Piccolo and Gohan, with Gohan being scared out of his mind and Piccolo trying to defend him, buying time for Goku to arrive? Roshi and Yamcha could certainly be in that battle, with Yamcha and Piccolo dying. Chi Chi and Bulma could be off finding the Dragonballs to bring Goku back instead of Popo and Kami. I'm not saying that this is what they should do, but it's the way screenwriters tend to think when it comes to adapting material like Dragonball, especially since Watchmen, which was as close an adaptation of a comic you can get, failed to meet expectations. Now I happen to think that Wong and Ramsey were the wrong people to adapt Dragonball. They were so intent on making it coherent for the general audience that they forgot the golden rule of adapting material like that. You can change something if necessary as long as the meaning behind it remains. Lord of the Rings is the perfect example. Jackson and co cut things like Tom Bombadil because it wasn't necessary to further the story. They gave lines from the book to different characters, but kept the meaning behind them. They broke the book down into its individual parts, got the core story down, fleshed out the characters and didn't get lost in subplots and characters that had no relevance to the central story. If the best screenwriter and director in Hollywood adapted Dragonball, there would be changes but what separates the best from the mundane is the ability to see the meaning behind the story, behind the characters and show that in a way that stays true to the source material without alienating the uninitiated. Sadly Ramsey and Wong aren't the best in Hollywood. |
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| Reptile | Apr 9 2009, 04:24 PM Post #9 |
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Battle Angel
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well I'm a bit shocked you don't really care about Kami(I wonder if anyone on this board really cares about the old Namek lol). I can see the way you make changes that doesn't need Kami San...but no way the story of Db was that long time ago a young Namek had to leave his home planet for destruction and came to our planet earth where he created the Dragonballs. After a while he wanted to become the guardian of the planet (or something like that...he doesn't need to be a GOD) and wanted to seperate his evil part, while doing this he formed a new image aka Piccolo Daimao... I love this story, and it's a challenge to adapt this situation...and you know, it also makes a perfect circle if you end it at the Freeza saga. If you say that Kami had to leave Namek at a very young age because of an invasion of Freeza and then let Piccolo and Kami(!) return to their planet to take revenge (Freeza saga, movie three perhaps) by combining again with each other then the circle is complete again. And at the end we can say that a new guardian has arrived to watch over the planet...just an idea, I thought about it too you know. I'd just love to see kami San, to me he's not a character that can easily taken out of it, but that's just me...you all know how much I like the Piccolo-Kami bond. Edited by Reptile, Apr 9 2009, 04:25 PM.
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| It's all part of the great circle...good is connected with evil...strength with weakness...understand this matter and prevail(Kami San) | |
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| Superraizen | Apr 9 2009, 05:19 PM Post #10 |
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Autobot
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I suppose they don't need Kami since there not really making a DB film. If they were to make a real DB film of course you need Kami he is important, he made the DB's. He is the whole reason Piccolo exists, he lead Goku to the other world to train with King Kai, before that he trained Goku to beat Piccolo. He is the god or guardian of the earth, and supplies Bulma with a ship to go to Namek. He is important to the DB story line but I suppose when you make up your own sh*t it doesn't matter. I really believe they will just have Vegeta come to earth alone and say hes Gokus brother. If they were going to leave any character out of the story it should of been Yamcha, further proof they don't really care about the faithfulness of DB. |
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| Reptile | Apr 9 2009, 05:25 PM Post #11 |
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Battle Angel
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and yes it's because Kami San made the frickin Dragonballs, that's why the show is called DRAGON BALL (ring a bell?) so how do you guys mean he's not imortant for DB?? |
| It's all part of the great circle...good is connected with evil...strength with weakness...understand this matter and prevail(Kami San) | |
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| Vadakin | Apr 9 2009, 05:40 PM Post #12 |
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Battle Angel
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Because you can give that role to Piccolo. Yes Kami is important to the Dragonball universe, but for the movieverse, Piccolo can fill that role easily enough. I went over this in my alternate DB movie idea in another thread so there is no point in me doing it again. But basically, have Piccolo create the Dragonballs, have them be used for something evil, which causes Piccolo's dark side to emerge. The mystics, fearing his wrath, imprison him. He gets out, goes on his little trek in DBE, loses, trains to beat Goku, Raditz arrives, Goku is killed. Piccolo then trains Gohan and through this process he begins to calm that dark part of him and then he sacrifices himself, completing his journey back to being the good Piccolo. |
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| Superraizen | Apr 9 2009, 05:44 PM Post #13 |
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Autobot
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Except that in DBE 7 mystics created the balls, and there was no warning if Piccolo dies the DB's vanish. |
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| Vadakin | Apr 9 2009, 06:44 PM Post #14 |
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Battle Angel
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That's easily retconned though. Have a conversation between Gohan and Piccolo in the sequel where Piccolo explains that he created the Dragonballs, putting his own life energy into them. When he dies the Dragonballs stop working. Which is why the Mystics put him in prison instead of killing him. Maybe they worked with Piccolo to create the Dragonballs but when he became evil they had no choice but to keep him alive. See, it's easily done. Heck Toriyama himself retconned the origin of the Dragonballs when he created Kami. |
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| Superraizen | Apr 9 2009, 07:38 PM Post #15 |
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Autobot
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Yes you could do that. You could do many things, you could have Broly land in Vegeta place and own everyone. But just cause you can do somethings in the movie doesn't make it a faithful adaption. They could have Piccolo say that and have no Kami, but then its not DBZ and its not the same Saiyan saga. They shot themselves in the foot with DBE being so unfaithful to the source material that to even try and stay somewhat faithful to the DBZ source material they would have to deviate a lot from it. It also cheapens Piccolo's character because the redeemed Piccolo was Piccolo Jr. King Piccolos son. King Piccolo was pure evil, he was all the evil in Kami but Piccolo Jr. showed that the sins of the father can be redeemed by the Son. I mean I bet you if they decide to have Krillin and Tien in it. They will have Vegeta make some kind of Tournament like Cell did, and Krillin and Tien would fight in it to defeat the Saiyan. |
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